#StandingWithBev the Interview

Bev Standing is a premium voice artist from Canada with many years experience in the field. She was shocked to learn last month that her voice was being used by the social media giant TikTok so that users could make posts with audio saying anything they wanted in Bev's voice. But TikTok has never employed Bev for voiceover or sought permission or rights to use her voice. So how will this all playout?
In this interview we go deep into the issues around TTS and AI voices, and also find out more about Bev the voice artist. We navigate the Tech, the Business, and the Craft of VO and find out how and why Bev has found success.
Presented by http://oceania.gravyforthebrain.com and http://www.tobyrickettsvoiceover.com
To support Bev in her case visit https://www.gofundme.com/f/stand-with...

Here is a transcript of the interview:

Hello, and welcome to this edition of vo life and Gravy for the brain Oceania, the interview where I talk to people who are big in the voice industry, and are doing amazing things and basically trying to get a round up of what everyone's doing at the moment. And really the woman of the hour at the moment and voiceover land, is my friend and colleague Bev standing from Canada. Welcome to the to the podcast. Hello, thank you, Toby. And I, it's a thrill to be here. No worries at all. Thank you for coming. So you are based in Canada, you're one of the territory controllers for grading for the brain. And I had the big pleasure of talking with them. Graham Spicer, your colleague. You're both based in Canada. How are you guys going with COVID? At the moment, we're still in lockdown. But that's coming to an end, we're getting better. I think we still can't travel to a lot of places, but our vaccine rollout is speeding up a little bit. So we're getting high in the percentages of single doses. And we're working towards a double dose. So hopefully like well, life will return to somewhat normal again soon, I hope. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, that's good. Especially, especially for us because it's summer. It's almost summer. So when you have months and months of cold weather, and you finally get nice weather, it'd be nice to go out. Absolutely. Yeah, it's not nice to be cooped up indoors with the with the warm weather is especially if you've been cooped up indoors already. So yeah, and life is certainly not normal for you at the moment with the recent some sort of revelations that that Tik Tok were using your voice illegally, effectively, because they had sort of got hold of it somehow. For people that hadn't that haven't kind of come across the story. And I have put put a few links so that people can but just give us a quick potted summary of you know, of how you first found out that they were doing this and sort of what the mechanics of that are. Sure. And I'm happy to because there's a really important message in all of this, so I'm happy to share it. Back in November, Bridget Reale, also with gravy for the brand sent me a video tik tok video through messenger and said, Is this your voice? And I went, Oh, yes, it is. And then she sent me another one. And so what about this one? And I went, Oh, that one's that my voice too. And then the next day, my daughter sent me one. And I went Oh, and then someone else in the family sent me one. And it wasn't quite as polite. And I went Oh. And so I downloaded Tick Tock because I wasn't a tick tock user. And I figured out how to use the text to speech feature. And lo and behold, there I was. And I've had people recognize my voice and they go, but how do you how do you know it's you? Right? Like, that's not all you. I did a text to speech job three years ago where I read 10,000 sentences. And we'll just jump right in. For those of you that have used tic toc text to speech. I read 10,000 sentences like this. And this is the TIC Tock voice. And it is unmistakable. So I knew instantly where the voice had come from. The problem is Tick Tock is not my client. So the question is, how did they get it? I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I mean, you as a as a sort of a relatively famous voiceover artist will have usually had people coming up to you and saying, Oh, is it your voice on this commercial? Is it your voice on this? I'm sure you get it as well, because I get it all the time. I'm like, it's not like it's not me. It doesn't mean anything. Like, sometimes it is making it. But I imagined it would have felt a little bit like the start of one of those conversations until it was like you say like the fourth person suddenly, you know, something's up. And the fourth person within 24 hours. Yeah, exactly. Like as soon as it started. People were messaging me. Yeah, that's terrifying. Especially when it could be that you're saying anything, you know, that's the text. And I was Yeah, yeah, it was and I and you want to pay me to say something? That's my choice. This is not my choice. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, I can sympathize as well as a voiceover artist. Because I in the last three years, I've done text to speech jobs as well, where you do read an awful lot of stuff in a particular voice. And, and it's, it's kind of long and grueling as well. I mean, the sentences you read are quite bizarre sometimes as well. So how to take us back to that moment that would that was not for Tick Tock that was for a different client. So it was three years ago, and it was for a company, a gentleman that contacted me directly. And he was in Edinburgh, Scotland. And I agreed to do the job. And I asked him what it was for and he said, translation us three languages and then dash US English and I went, I would love to be the voice of a translation. I knew it would be dissected. I knew it would be taken apart. I knew it would be a robotic interface for translation. So when it came out that I was the text to speech voice I went Wait a minute. That's That's not it. That's not What I agreed to, and again, tic tocs, not my clients. So you can't, you can't do it in the music industry, you can't do it in the art industry, you shouldn't be able to do it in the voice industry. And if they can do this, have they used it elsewhere? And I don't even know yet. Like, we don't know, they could have used your voice and you just haven't heard it yet. Yeah. And then it shows up one day without your knowledge or authorization. And it's just wrong. Absolutely. I mean, this is such an important case for all voiceover artists, because, you know, like I say, I've done at least two text to speech jobs, pro one of about that size, and one, you know, it's a bit smaller, for a very specific topic. But then if there is some kind of way that they can take what you've done, and then use it for anything, I mean, that's just, you know, that opens you up to all kinds of horrible things. So it's, I think this is a really important case. And we were all kind of waiting for this case, in a way because we knew how dangerous the text to speech, like, the concept of it was that you could, you know, take someone saying something, and then like, the deep fakes, you know, you could just put up somewhere else saying something completely different, because the technology has reached that point. And so like, I mean, I certainly knew that there would be a case at some point of this, and I didn't know, I didn't know what's gonna be needed, you know? And I'm kind of happy, it's me, and I'll tell you why. I get to stand up. And maybe other people would have just gone Hey, I'm the voice of Tick Tock. Yay. But that wouldn't have helped anybody in the industry. So I've, I'm, I feel like, this was handed to me on a silver platter, because somewhere the universe went, she's gonna say something. Let it be her. I don't know. But I believe in standing up for what's right. And I believe in doing it in a positive way. I'm not bad mouthing anybody, I'm not throwing any negatives out there. This is technology. And when the world you know, I don't go back into this business. I don't think as far as you. I don't know, when you started. 1990? Probably, I mean, yeah, pre 2001 was the very first, okay. So when you started, you were going to studios, you'd go into auditions. And very, very quickly, it started, you could do some jobs from home. And people panicked, why do I don't have a home studio, we go into the studio, I don't know how to edit, the engineer does all that. And then the industry adjusted. And I think we're just at that point now, that technology is caught up. And we have to adjust. But if this didn't happen, the conversations about usage and the conversations about I mean, usage is always there, but not to the extent that we're looking at right now, we have to be really, really clear, when we do these jobs, you can't sell my voice, you can't use it for another app without my permission without talking to me and creating boundaries. And and whether you want to get paid for it or not. If it was something that you were passionate about, and you didn't care if you got paid, that's your choice, but it should be your choice that should be presented to you, we're selling this, we're you know, we're giving it to these people, and they want to use your voice. Now you get to have the conversation with that person, or that company. And I think this hopefully, will be the grounds that make this happened. Exactly. And yeah, I, I didn't really think about that. But it's it's kind of happening. there's a there's a few different facets to this and the effects in effect, because there's the kind of just the pure business angle of like, well, it's my property you use, you know, my property for your gain. So therefore, you know, I'm entitled to some of that that value. But also, like you said, the reputational angle, which I think is probably more striking, is with the TTS is that they can bring your brand into disrepute. Right? And you know that that that's kind of a violation of your of your integrity as a voiceover artist. Yeah, I have no say, and, and my brand is my choice, my say, my decisions, my everything. I'm an independent person, like business. And and you can't just go and change my logo, what you can't just go and use my voice and make it say whatever you want without my approval. Right? Yeah, it goes so much deeper than Oh, they used your voice, you should get paid. And, and I'm getting a bit of that, you know, oh, you just, it's all about the money just. And it's funny. One of the very first emails I got was extremely negative, and it's all about the money and I hope you lose and I hope it costs you 1000s and legal. Just put your voice back it's just a voice and I so my brain says this person just appreciated the fact that they liked this text to speech voice and they'd like it back. They just don't know how to say it nicely. That's true. And I don't know if you I mean, you would have seen the videos that are circulating on YouTube about like, there's so there's like millions of people saying bring back the the old Tick Tick Tock voice You know, there's so many memes floating around about it now. I haven't seen them all. I haven't really had time I've been completely overwhelmed with the attention. This is getting and My days are now what times my next interview. And I'm agreeing to that because the message is so important. Like I said, it's not about Bev getting justification and payment for what she did. That's this much of what this is all about. And I again, I got flowers from a friend, and she said, thanks for standing up for women everywhere. I mean, it doesn't matter how you look at it. This could have been somebody that would have rolled over and gone. Wow, I'm the voice of Tick Tock Isn't that great? And a statement, and it would have destroyed our industry. So I'm kind of happy that I've been put in this position and have the gumption to do to do this. But I don't do this alone. I do this with the entire voiceover industry. I can't believe the support I've gotten. That's brilliant. And like, all those reasons, though. Yeah, thank you on behalf of the industry, you know, for for, for taking this on, because it will it will take an awful lot of time. You know, you're putting yourself out there as the sort of the face of this campaign. And you've done it in a brilliant way. I have to say your branding on this has been excellent. The hashtag standing with beavers. Like is genius. I wish I thought of that. But I didn't. Actually somebody else came up with that. They also said you should do hashtag standing with Rob Rob. Rob's giggling Paglia is my lawyer. He is also a voice talent. So he understands the business. And he's located in the US where tic tocs offices are. So it all kind of and I knew Rob, so it fell into place. But the other one is, when this goes to litigation, and there's some rules in place, which I hope happens, that that helps everybody work together in a really cohesive way. It's positive for both sides that they call it the standing clause. Got the perfect name? Absolutely. No. That said, That's fantastic. And the other question I've heard sort of secret is whether they you know, the unions have been worried about this, you know, sag AFTRA and some of the other unions in terms of who who control who works in voice and who's paid what, etc. But they haven't really made a big thing of it. And hopefully, they can kind of join this in a way or somehow exert the what influence they do have into I'm hoping they stand up. And yeah, I'm not a union member. I'm not, it's sag AFTRA in Canada. And after in the States, I believe, and I'm neither, but I hope they stand up and listen, because there is some talk to this. And there's going to be more and more companies that hire you to do your thing. And then you might control your voice, you might have the say, of who can use it. And that would be wonderful. And it would be like a passive income, I would think the Union would be part of it want to be part of that. You know, so I'm hoping, again, by being this public and accepting requests for interviews and talking more to people and spreading the word that it's not just about getting paid for your work. It's so much bigger, I'm hoping the union does step in and go You're right, we can lend a voice because everyone I've talked to whether they're union talent or not, whether they're agents, casting directors, they're all we're behind you 100%. They may just be waiting to see what happens with it. But at some point, I'm hoping that that they join the support, at least, you know, by verbally saying we're behind you on this one. Yeah, brilliant, because it would be good, it would be fantastic, that support it. Another thing about TTS that's been kind of like the flip side of it, because it has been kind of doom and gloom, like the robots going to take our jobs like every other industry. But there has been the one the TTS companies I've been talking to. there's a there's a couple of them who are really kind of doing it for the voiceover angle. And what they've described is that they're developing like voice print technology. So you can effectively Copyright The sound of your voice when it comes to AI. But not only that, but they're trying to design platforms so that, like voice actors, like me, and you can go on and effectively create like a like a costume if you like, which is like a character in a voice game. So you'll create a character and then say a bunch of different words to make that character real. And then they can make that character in the game, say anything they want, and they pay you like per character or per player or something like that. So there are some glimmers of hope that technology could also be the solution in terms of having these digital voice prints and the ability to have basically like it like a pay to play. But for your TTS voice, which alone It will you will Oh yeah. And that's that's where this passive income will come by. And again, it comes to us to be in a studio then you had to figure out how to be at home now we have to figure out how to work with them. And those are the companies I'd be happy to talk to you because they get it they get that it is your product and that you should be paid for the work you do but they want to work with you on this and technology is going that way. Why not make it work and stop the pushback? Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Like they need the voices originally. In order to make this work. And if they get this terrible reputation, it's not going to work in their best interest. No. And I've also heard for video games and stuff, they'd be using that for more background, characters and stuff, as opposed to the main characters are still going to be voice actors. But but the, you know, the grunting teacher in the side that gets pushed out of the way in the grocery store might very well be an AI voice that we've created. Yeah. And you would, you would be told that it's there using your voice and you would be paid for it might not be much compared to, you know, an actual voice job. But your hard work of creating the voice itself, because it can be taxing would be done. Yeah, absolutely. I, I know from one of the TTS jobs I did, where I set it was over like one Christmas, and I had to do so like five hours recording a day. And it was, it was very challenging, because it really, it puts you in some kind of weird mindset. And in the end, the whole thing fell over and I never got anything for it was a real shame. Now, do you know that? Well, it's very suspicious. Now. It's terrible. I need to know where because that's the thing about data, isn't it? So copyable, and it's so duplicatable. That, that is where the problem is talking to the guy who's the voice of the was the original voice of Google in the UK. And met him at the one voice conference in 2018. I think it was, and he did a talk there about how he got I think, like 500 pounds or something just ridiculous and signed sort of is right away. Before text to speech was even a glimmer on the horizon. It was you know, like it he literally didn't it was like a science experiment could have at that time, but but did sign has happened. So it's right away. And and now like, wherever I hear, you know, someone's GPS, and it's like, turn right in 34 meters. I was odd is that guy again? He's like, he's omnipresent. And so hard to extricate yourself once you've once you've gone down that route? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think this was brought to light in, in North America with Siri, originally, when she was recorded and didn't know that this was what it was going to be for. So you know, all these things coming out and speaking loud and proud about, you know, you can't do this is a wake up call to the people that are doing it. And I and I think as long as it's, we can make some differences in the industry and get the ground rules set, it's just not going to be an issue in AI is going to exist. And alongside voice talent, and I always say, you can have a good video, or you can have a luxurious, you know, Jaguar driving down the street, or you can drive a I don't want to be little any car, but a less expensive car. Or you can have a luxury car, and the less expensive cars, your AI voice. But you might never get that humanization of the luxury car that's not going to go away. So I don't think that our jobs are going to go away. I think they're going to change. But we need to change with them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, flexibility is the key, isn't it? You know, that's that's the same for any kind of ecosystem is that you you want to be you want to move with the environment. That's the whole thing about evolution is that you know, the you try a bunch of different things and then go with the one that gives you the best results sort of going forward. So we do have to turn it, turn it into the voiceover district. I mean, we take our training we do we do our coaching, we come up with a commercial demo. And you know, what start says, buy this product introducing has turned into this, you know, oh, you should you should just try it. It's and it's like, wait a minute, I didn't train like that two years ago. So we're constantly learning and training and growing and staying up on the trends and beating the trends and, and doing all those things. And this is no different. It's just how to make it work. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of trends, and moving a little bit sideways on topics, I've noticed that that briefs that come through now, and sort of you know, these things from agents, especially in the States, there's and I know agents have been talking about this, but the fact that they now say, you know, this, here's the fee, $3,000, whatever, this includes all lifts all versions or cuts, bah, bah, bah, you know, this is 60, a 30, or 15, or six and a five. And that's all included in the fee. And we can make other ones that we don't have to pay you. And it's kind of like halfway to the TTS, they've got a real voice to do it. But they're basically like, anything you say in the session can be used to make any other work at any time. And I recently had a client who came back and said, like, I did some kind of commercial, you know, six months ago, and they said, Oh, we've got to pick up on that commission. I was like, pickup, it's a bit late for pickup. It's, you know, it's been six months. And it was like their script was like they changed the price or they there was a new offer. I was like, This is not this isn't a pickup. This is a new work. This is this is the next stage in the campaign. You can't call this a pickup and then I just see that there are these these inroads that people are trying to get to sort of, you know, make it cheaper. And it's important that we are aware of them and kind of, you know, and realize when our value has kind of been hijacked. Well, they wouldn't say it if let's just say it was a television commercial or radio commercial. They don't go to the people and go Oh, you know what? We're just going to make a minor change and keep running this for 13 weeks they go, you don't have to change anything. But if you want to run it for 30 more weeks, it's going to cost you. And it's the same on the other side, and you change the price. It's a new spot. It's a new spot. Yeah, it's a new work, isn't it. But it's interesting that this complements now of, you've got, I mean, you've got more than this, but you've you've got two different types of voice buyers, the ones who are like small business owners who have never dealt with the industry before, and they've maybe just bought things from the supermarket, or employed, you know, tradespeople or whatever. And then they sort of advertising agencies who have a much more used to the kind of licensing model, etc. And it's sometimes quite, you know, there's quite a lot of education that needs to happen, especially on those kind of lower paid sort of more self service gigs on the pay to place, especially when when people want to reuse things or, or make modifications. Have you found that with that you have to educate a lot more? Yes. Yes, you know, you change your proposals on online castings just say, you know, this, this, this price that I'm quoting, needs to be discussed further with regards to usage, and we just need to put it in there. And so here's the thing, you can have a contract, and you can have an email agreement, and they are both legally binding. So if you put something in your proposal, and they hire you, they've read that, that counts as an agreement. So you've opened the door to a discussion that can be held up in a court of law. So maybe, that's pretty interesting, too, because one of my big things has been with the pay to plays, is to put in Yeah, as you say, like, like, this is an indicative cost, you know, it's going to be confirmed when I know who the client is, when or the usage, etc, etc. Because I did get burnt, you know, a few years ago with, you know, people saying, I've got a little corporate video, you know, can you do this, and then it turns out, it's, you know, for Facebook, and you find it in the session with the client. And so, you know, that's right. There's all kinds of awkward things that go on like that, where it's just, you know, I want to try and avoid that in the future. So well, and and that's part of it too, just because Facebook's putting together a little tiny video, doesn't mean it's going to cost any more or less than the guy down the street who's starting his own business. But it comes down to Media Buy, and they're paying 1000s of dollars for to be seen around the world, you kind of get a piece of that, right? Like, so, when a big company puts it together, they have a huge budget, and the voiceover is part of that budget, you get somebody working out of their basement that's trying to make a living for Joe's burgers on the corner, a different story, and how, why would you advertise Joe's burger on the corner, a small town in another country, you just wouldn't. So you have to look at the details, or at least ask what the details are? Where exactly is this gonna be aired? When I love the line? It's just online. It's just gonna be an online video. Oh, so the whole world is gonna see this is what you're saying? Right? It's different. If you do a landing page, I'm going to grab you for the brain, you know, Oceania? Well, that's where it's going to get seen. Yeah, but if I say it's for Honda, it can be seen anywhere around the world. Exactly. That's exactly it. So and the interesting thing is, as well with, and I've gone through this journey with royalties, in terms of, you know, you do with video for sort of a big company, that that they say is like what's only gonna be organic for 13 weeks kind of thing. But the thing is, once you post something on the internet, it never gets taken down. Like there's always a copy somewhere. So effectively, it's not really moral for you to charge them until the day you die for that, that thing that they're not really using anymore, but it will still be on the internet. So there's an interesting balance to be struck there as well. Yes, one of the things I always think of is in commercial products, a lot of products get changed very quickly. So it's something to be concerned, especially if there's a price in there. And that's where an important any script changes will ish will warrant a new session fee or whatever, a new cycle, new 13 week fee for this like you have to. So again, the terms need to be further clarified prior to accepting this job is all you have to say and then get it in writing, whether it be an email or written out contract, but something right, so I'm going to transition into the sort of the more and more finding out more you about the you as a voiceover artist. And I like to sort of put there's this kind of three like a Venn diagram, there's three different bits of voiceover, there's the business, the tech and the craft. And my first question was, actually, funnily enough beautiful segue is how do you price voiceover in terms of the business of your voiceover? And has it been something that you've sort of learned how to do just like you learn how to operate your equipment and just how you learn to use your voice? And like, how do you go about now? Do you have a fixed rate card? Or do you go off the industry? rate cards? How does it all work? Use the gravy for the brain rate guide is actually what I do. I'm one of those people that I could sell you the moon but as soon as you asked me how much I go, well, it's it. It's only $2,499. But you know what I'll give you about 2003. I stumbled my way through it if you have to ask me in person. So I'm happy to say the industry standard rate for a spot like this for this much usage, according to is this much. And I don't have a rate guide per se. Like one that's that's etched in stone that's on my website or anything. So I do you have to kind of get a feel of the client and how many people are involved and how long that's going to be? And is it regional? Is it local? Is it national? There's so many different things. So I don't want to have anything etched in stone. But a lot of times, if it's if it's someone that's reached out to me and says, hey, I've got this thing, and I go, Well, that sounds really interesting. Can you give me a few big details? And what's your budget? totally right. And then I can have something to work with. If they come back with. They go, well, it's just a little video. Well, nothing is just a little video. This is exciting, and I want to work with you. But I need to know where it's like, just keep prying them for information until they give you a number. And then you can go Oh, I was only going to church. Okay, let's, I can work with this. I'm not going to bill you your top because I wouldn't have. But I'm certainly not going to build you my bottom because it wants more than that because of the description you've given me. So how to bid. It's a learning curve. It really is. But we do have guides to use. And I'm happy to use them. And we try to keep them current as times you're changing. Yeah, wasn't it keeping that that that price, but it's almost like the there's so many different ways that even in different territories and and in countries that people charge like the whole British system with the BSF with the basic studio fee and like anything industrial is just done for 250 pounds an hour. And and the thing is like the British system, it bugs me how it is time based. So if you're a rubbish voiceover artist, and it takes you five hours to get through it, as opposed to three hours, you get paid less. How does that work? Or if you're really good, you can do it in about three and a half minutes. I've read it edited and off the go. Yeah, it is funny. And I find in Canada, if you say in perpetuity, it just doesn't seem to hold as much concern. We're certainly not a small country. But it just doesn't seem to I don't whether they don't use it as much. In the US. Absolutely. It's like you say in perpetuity and you go and no, I'm not doing it. Right. Okay, so are you saying from a client perspective, or from the voice talent perspective about from from what I see, even when I see it from my agents, they don't like it. But if it's a Canadian based job, it just doesn't have the longevity that that other places seem to? I won't say that's necessarily across the board in every field. But it's not as alarming as when you see in perpetuity, say in the United States. Yeah, absolutely. Where you hear about people, you know that then? And they're remaking commercials or something? And like we were talking earlier with the same campaign later on? Yeah, so I haven't seen as much concern. I mean, I try to say, and I certainly my agent in Canada tries to say no, no, no, but it just doesn't seem to be, it doesn't carry as much weight as it does elsewhere. It seems. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. And that word in perpetuity has been quite a recent phenomenon. And I can understand why with big corporations, they want to make sure that nothing's going to sting them in three years time, you know, their company gets sold to someone else, and suddenly, they've got this bill for, you know, huge amount. So I can see the business case of why it is. But I mean, for me, it's been, like, I basically, you know, I charge if it's organic on the internet, and no paid placement, then effectively, you get an in perpetuity license, because it's just sitting on the internet, and if people see it then go on, and it's based on sort of company size, but if there is a media buy, then obviously, you know, you want a piece of that media for if someone's spending a million dollars to place it, then you know, it's got to be relative to that, because you're they're obviously getting more value from you. But it's not just that it's if it's sitting on the internet and somebody's website, and the only time you're going to go there is if you really need to research that little thing. That's not really going to interfere with you doing anything with their competition. But when it's out there, and it's Media Buy and it's thrown in your face, and it's you know, buy this drink or buy this burger or whatever shop here it's like that can be detrimental to your work trying to get work elsewhere. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's also the same thing like I used to say you know, if it's a big huge company like Microsoft, you know, it's got to be absolute top dollar. But there's a difference between Microsoft making an above the line campaign for like Microsoft that everyone in the world will see. And, and like a tiny how to video on one of their servers, deep, you know, buried in one of their service techs that may be five engineers are gonna see in their life, you know, it is technically for Microsoft, but there's a big difference in viewership and reach. Yes, and I've done a lot of internal work for very big companies. I just don't say that because you won't ever see it. Unless you're an employee of that company, yeah, so I know I did it. I don't need anyone else to know I did it. It's just no one's gonna ever see it unless you work there. Yeah. How do you keep track of royalties? Do you have a system? CRM, I have a very basic CRM that. And honestly, if I have to refresh, like, you know, it's been a year, it's in my calendar. About three weeks prior to the term, it comes up with the client information, the job, the date of the email, and I'll fire off an email directly. That's great idea. Yeah, that's something that I'm probably that's the, I'm the worst at that. In the world. It's hard. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's funny, I don't have half a dozen clients that pay me large amounts of money to do their spots. But I have a large number of clients that send me a lot of work, and constantly new ones through online casting sites or word of mouth, and it does get challenging, and I would bet I've probably missed one or two. I actually had a love, you know, relationships with your clients are huge. Two weeks ago, I got an email just just after this. tic toc thing hit I got an email going, oh, by the way, can you send me an invoice? We're not renewing until October, but we want to make sure we've got this down. Okay. Thank you. I can't one last thing to do or not September's so exactly does happen. Yeah. And then there are some really good clients. Usually the big agencies are actually really good at that, where they will send you an email like three months out saying please invoices for you know, for $1,000. for the, for the you know, the the rights to use the on your voice ongoing, which is fantastic. It's so good that they respect that integrity. So a calendar, when you're starting out is easily just just put it on the date, you need to refresh it, and it'll fire you off or reminder, hey, you need to contact these people. Yeah, that's a great idea. I need to start doing that. pay to play as you mentioned them to support online casting sites. How sort of what percentage of your business do you get from Peter plates? Because it's a big question, especially beginner talent sort of get a bit. They feel like should I join pay to place and well, so my history is, when I first started, I was able to get my very first job off a pay to play often on my casting site. And then I got another one. And then I got another one. And that was really, almost the only place I was getting work. But then because I had some work, I was able to get an agent. So when I think of people, should I or shouldn't I? The answer's yes. Especially with online castings. Now, I mean, there's so much discussion about them, you can find out what's right, what's good, what's bad. There's different layers. So do what different levels you can do, what, what you can afford. But, and I and I say this, so I think some people say that this shouldn't say this, I use, I used online casting sites to practice, but you get every script that comes across your desk that you qualify for. Now, if your tags are wrong, you might not really qualify it. Or if the client hasn't ticked the boxes correctly, you might not really qualify for it. But it doesn't hurt to read it. You're still training, you're still learning, read it a bunch of times read the description. And if you go, No, I didn't get it, just hit delete, you don't have to send it because you said I'd read the script. But it's so for that reason, it's a good practice. It's good to get in and see how quickly you can get into character and get into, you know, the person who's telling this message and all those things. And and then you kind of go, you know what, I think I'd be really good at explainer videos or, you know what I think I should pursue animate. But how do you know? I think to me, it's a great way to spend an hour a day just looking at scripts on online casting sites, because where else do you get that kind of exposure? handed to you sitting at home? Yeah, it's so true. I I say exactly. To my students that, you know, it's a there's a potential of getting jobs, but it's also just fantastic practice with real world scripts. And not only that, but the fact that you even if you don't get the job, you have still read for someone who is going to cast more voices in the future, luckily, and they might keep you in mind. And Oh, absolutely. I've definitely got jobs off the back of not getting other jobs, if you know what I mean? Well, and it always had doesn't always happen that the person that's listening to your audition may not be the hiring person and they come back with, you know, I can't tell you how many times this has happened. I absolutely loved your read, I loved your audition, the client went with somebody else, but I'm going to put you on my roster or I'm going to, you know, keep you in mind for the next time or I favored you so that I'll find you next time. It did leads to work, always down the road. But as I said, if you really read it and go, No, just hit Delete. Just don't submit And it's a great place. And not only that you're reading the direction that is current and trending. And that's important. Because remember when I said at the beginning, you train and do all this, but then things change, you got to change with it. And if you were to go into a studio and they said, we'll do this, and this and you go, I don't even know what you're talking about. You have to know what they're talking about. You have to know what they're looking for. Part of the part of the gig. Yeah, it is. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so which which pay to place do you go to if you name names, which names I'm on? I'm on voice 123 and have been for years. I started on voices.com. And I was doing extremely well. They changed their terms of service. So I left. I have not go back. I have a free profile there because it doesn't hurt to be found. Yeah, but I don't actually do any work there. And but delgo voice realm and vo planet. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, there's me. There's so many it's it's, and I feel like a new one starts each week. You know, it's like, oh, and cast voices. I just joined cast. Yeah. Oh, and I'm on voiceovers to Gosh, I'm on a lot. It but I have a I mean, if I don't work, I stopped renewing. And I booked on all of them. So yeah, yeah, fair enough. It's good. And it's also good for your Google SEO. Of course, anytime that your name is associated with the word VoiceOver on a different site and points back to you. That's a good thing. Yeah. It doesn't hurt to be found. And if you can put a free profile out there and you have a legitimate demo to do it be a free profile. It's just someone to hear, you know, it's a place to be found. Yeah, I think it's a good thing. And online casting keeps changing. And if if they change their terms of service, and you don't agree with them just walk away. Fair enough. What was that read their terms? the terms of service with voices.com was at the sort of we own all your demos, part of it. Yeah, that was kind of it back there. They they, they had and this goes back, but they actually had a clause in there at some point that said that voices.com owns your audio and can reproduce it for any purpose. what not, this isn't the right wording, but we reproduce it for anything, they want it no renumeration to the talent. And that's when I walked away. I don't think that clauses in there now but then they bought an AI company. And I just went, I got it. I'm on six other sites. So we're good. And you do what we see. And the final question in the comment business section is, how do you think it's important to have a sort of a marketing strategy as a voiceover, you know, outside of your agents in the pay to plays that you're actually looking for work yourself? And what do you do in that regard? Yes, it's important. Trust me, I had no business experience whatsoever when I started this, and I had no, I, I had nine years at marketing, but I was marketing a multidisciplinary engineering firm, doing whatever they told me to do. And when they said, Go, Go talk about yourself and say how great you are, I went, ah, I know, I can't do this. So I, I do a lot of reading. I use LinkedIn, I use Facebook for pretty much business purposes only. I think if you looked at all my personal references, you'd come up with family of 10, an ex colleagues from jobs I've held in the past, maybe another 20, and the rest of voiceover people or clients or but I think it's there's all kinds of ways to market yourself, I don't have somebody that does that. For me, I probably should. I'm a little afraid of marketing, but it's important to just be confident and share your demos, make sure that you do things on LinkedIn that show so here's a little tips like this, this is how you learn from the beginning on up in LinkedIn, when you reply to somebody, great job. Right, your name comes up. And a few little words about you. The better not be I work at a dry cleaners. If you're trying to get voiceover work. If you want to work for dry cleaners that you know get more people there, that's fine. But if you want to be a voice actor, you need to say, you know bad standing voiceover talent or voice actor voiceover it like whatever combination you want. But that's what they see. So you need to make sure that scene on every reply, LinkedIn, join the conversations. So I do that I joined groups, and don't talk about you. So that is a good marketing plan for me, because I don't like saying, I have great demos, I do a really good job I that I have trouble with that. So by joining in their conversation and saying, Well, how do you do that? And what does it mean when you say this? We're just getting involved with them. You make a response and they see that upstanding voice actor. If they want to reach out they will eventually Yeah, interesting. So good marketing. It's important, but it can be subtle. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, thank you for that. So marking tip, that's fantastic. And let's pivot to the tech of voiceover. I can see you are located in your lovely, comfortable voiceover booth. It's good size that you constructed that in sort of in your house in your office, if you like. It is this is in a room that used to be a garage, my son in law built it for me. He's brilliant, looked on the internet and figured out how fantastic I got my door. Where's my dirt? My door is here from a secondhand store was in a frame. And it's an exterior door show, he said got all kinds of like, and it's an exterior tail door with double glass. Oh, fantastic. Yeah, that's what Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah. So listen, and what kinds of soundproofing Do you have is that stuff that you've bought off the shelf? This was Graham Spicer love him, connected me with the chap who was building these frames, and they're just double walled, insulated, covered in fabric, two pieces of wood, but I also have to my booth is two walls. So let's drywall a little bit of space. Yep. Rock Solid insulation. Yeah. Little bit of space. Yeah, to send more drywall. And then on the outside as I have here is indoor outdoor carpeting. Kind of muffles. And I'm on a carpet on a concrete floor. Yeah, fantastic. I should have had a raised floor. No complaints. So it's any with concrete floors dimensions only when someone does some drilling, or there's a motor running or some air conditioning or something. I live in the country and all that stuff from the other side of my house, like the air conditioning and also on the other side. So I'm good. Oh, that's fantastic. Good job. Yeah. And what gear do you run? You've got a 4416. It looks like you did must use I have a 416. I have my very first Mike. Oh, yeah. Because I saw one of the interviews is that it's Audio Technica. 3035 I don't think they make them anymore. And that was a cute story. I walked into a place to get a microphone because I had done an audition on I was an inspector at the time. And I had a little handheld microphone. And I got asked to do a radio imaging spot. And I recorded in that and sent in the file. And the guy emailed me back and said, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But I think there's something wrong with your mic. But what Mike? So I went to this little warehouse place it sold microphones and music equipment. And this really nice guy was helping me asking me what I was doing it for and hooked me up with this mic and a couple of other gadgets to keep it down. And when I asked him where I should pay, and he goes, Oh, I don't work here. I'm a sound engineer, go go over there. What's perfect? Yeah, and it was a great mic for years and years and years. This for 16 is maybe a year and a half old. And I went from that to a TLM 102. Yeah. And then I switched to this because I started traveling. And this travels a little better for my voice. Oh, they travel so well, that the 416 is so robust as well, like I've chucked it in a suitcase, gone right around the world with it and they just don't miss a beat and then they don't miss at all. There's no noise. Yeah, and they don't pick up the room as much. So you're in a hotel and you've got outside, it just doesn't get that the way that the other mics do something because they're a hypercardioid a shotgun. And so they just yeah, so this works for me. That's great. Same Same here, actually. Yeah. And I always recommend the 416 if people want a professional mic, because it's just does the business really well. And you and I love this. Don't know what it's called, but I love it. Yeah, that's an interesting pop filter. I haven't seen that before. But it's it's soft, like a soft steel, but it's got layers. Absolutely. It's like three layers there. And it's it's the first one I've seen that's rounded. So it actually kind of deflects the the the airwave that goes forward as opposed to actually just, you know, bounces off it because I've got these, this one here, this these round circles like the classic one. Yeah, I have a couple of those, too. I like this better. Yeah, I might see if I can get one of those. I'll send you the details. And it just slides right over the 416 with rubber bands. Oh, that's great. Please do please send me that. That's fantastic. I will send you the link. Are you you're kind of a tech whiz. Have you embraced the technical side of voiceover or more of a Luddite? Oh, I make check. No. Did I convince you even for a second. I learned what I needed to learn as I needed to learn it the same way I learned Microsoft Word and Excel and the computers when computers were first created. I learned what I needed to learn. So I started out learning how to silence a breath. And now I do pretty much everything on the fly and pretty quick, but it's repetition because I do a lot of auditions. So when I started out, I had a full time job but I would spend two to three hours a night trying to hone my craft and come up with these auditions and try and book a job and listen to a webinar and, you know, practice my scripts and you know, do whatever I needed to do and so good two to three hours every single night. And then if you got a job, you had to edit it. So I just got faster and faster and faster. And I'm, I studied classical music as a child. So I'm ambidextrous, with my fingers. So I guess maybe it came a little quicker than it's interesting. I trained myself to be ambidextrous, because I was doing again, I was doing so much editing on a pretty bad setup at the time that I ruined one of my wrists, and it was just so painful for me to edit. And I noticed that I was just, I just wasn't auditioning, because subconsciously, I didn't want the pain of having to edit them. So I realized that and I was like, I need to change what I'm doing. So I thought, well, I've ruined their hand. Let's start on this other hand. And so yeah, and it took takes about a week, and you have to tie your other hand behind your back. Because otherwise, when you're not concentrating your other hand goes and grabs the mouse, like if you're if you're trying to convert, which is really interesting, psychological phenomena. So I have two screens, I have one that has the audio up and one that has the script up and I'd be scrolling down on this side and editing with this side. And it's cool. Yeah. So yeah, I'm pretty quick. But again, baby steps. Yeah. And you guys are used to a Adobe Audition. Yeah. And I use the current ones, you can do a lot on the fly. But there's all kinds of shortcuts. And there's some great people out there. And there's a Facebook group for Adobe Audition. And just any group, I say go look at this group search to see if the questions been asked first. Yeah, and YouTube is your friend, you'd be amazed what you can learn still to this day, I go, Wow, where did that go? And so I google, where did this little shortcut go? And lo and behold, you'll find out so yeah, bit by bit. Yeah, totally. And to sort of final section about voiceover, which is the craft of voiceover, which is, which is kind of the area where people, you know, people who are new to the world or whatever, think this is the only area you know, outside of the tech and the business side of voiceover. But I guess it's the most important when you're when you're starting out and learning because you have to have a have a good voice and be able to interpret scripts in order to build the tech and the business behind it. So what do you think, makes a good voice? It's a big question. You're gonna love this, because this will tie the whole day together, emotion. Whether it's your emotion, whether you're channeling the emotion of somebody else, every word we speak, we speak with emotion, every conversation we have, we have emotion behind it, we have some sort of passion, some sort of connection. And if you can confine, if you can find connection to the words, you're speaking, you can have a strange voice and still have a beautiful voice. Because you'll get the message out there. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I mean, that's effectively what we're hired to do is move other people and, and connect with other people to communicate a message isn't that? That's the basis of it. Yeah. Oh, well, that's my that's my thought. That's a very good answer. And like, what are the what's the most important things that people should know when you know, because in recent years, especially people are like, I've heard about this voiceover thing, it sounds really easy and amazing, and I've got a good voice, and I'm going to go and do it. What are the most important things for people to know before they jump into a career with voiceover? I think with any career, it's a business. It's a business. First and foremost, you don't become a doctor without learning how to become a doctor. But if you can, if you can stick with it, and follow it step by step by step it is, in my opinion, the most fun career choice in the world. There's some pretty fun things out there, but you do something different every day, every hour, whether it's you, whether it's just auditioning, you're this person, then you're that person, then you're, you know, going through this emotion, and then you're marketing and then your the community is it's just the best. So if you can, if you can stick with it, and just find you in the the actual performance. And slowly, you didn't just get behind the wheel of a car and go on a highway. It's like just bit by bit by bit. You'll get it because getting up in the morning is not work. It's like, oh, the sun came up, I get to go do something today. I love it. There couldn't be anything more fun. Yeah, I totally agree. And that's the thing. You know, if you do love what you do, then you never work a day in your life. And I still don't really consider voiceover work. And I would do this even if I didn't require money. Because exactly, it's such a creative outlet. And the people are wonderful. I've been in a ton of different jobs throughout my life and the community the support, that it's just such a happy place to be. I couldn't think of anything better. Absolutely. That's fantastic. And do you think anyone can be a good voiceover? Or do you think it is quite a sort of a niche occupation that only suits a few people? I don't think everybody can be a voice actor. I think more people I can be than they perhaps think they can be. It's hard. It's it's a lot of work and time and commitment. And if you're finding it, if you're finding it interesting and enjoying it, then I think there's a really good chance. And and I'm like you, I'm a territory controller in Canada. And we're mentoring people. And sometimes, you know, you'll get someone that it'll come across your desk, and they'll read and you go, huh. But after a while, when they start to get it, you think even with that voice, it's just so unique. It's so different. Absolutely. They just have to get beyond the I'm reading us script. Totally. Yeah. And there is a huge shift in the industry, that the briefs coming through that I mean, all of the scripts that I see now say, not an announcer can't sound like a voiceover wanted to sound like a regular person, you know, but they just have to, like you say, not sound like they are in a studio reading a script. That's right. Yeah. Arms and eyes and pauses and all those things that listen, when you talk. Yeah, if you can sound like that. You can do this. That's it's an art. But it you know, that's why we take lessons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And do you do characters as well as quote unquote, straight voiceover I still considered straight voiceover character, kind of. I know what you're saying. I have. I don't as a rule, do video games and whatnot. But I mean, the last job I did was a troll. I was an old lady troll in a Fitz conservatory in Philadelphia. Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the state Pennsylvania. Sorry, I'm Canadian. I just a moment there. Okay, we'll go back. Yeah. And, and so on the age old lady that you have to answer these questions to. And I've done some little kids stuff and whatnot. And I yeah, I've done like witchy things for some video stuff, trailers and stuff, but it's not my main focus. And I've definitely found that because I kind of wanted to challenge myself a couple years ago, and I want to give the gaming thing ago without kind of having appreciation for the fact that you need to learn everything again, like it is like an entirely different industry. Like the marketing is different. The contacts are completely different. They're just the your studio setup even has to be a bit different for the whole the movement and the loud volume that that comes out, rather than a straight voiceover. So yeah, fascinating in terms of it's a completely parallel separate industry almost. It's a it's amazing it. I've watched a few videos on on, and I've been in a few training sessions at conferences and stuff for people that that do video games, and you're like, wow, is that how you do? I mean, they go into the session for four hours and do nothing but grunt Yeah, no, you have to die. there's a there's a gentleman, I'm friends with humans in Spain at the moment, but I think in one video game, he was killed 2412 times or something. And you have to sound different every time. Are you being killed with a gun, a knife, a car, a tree, a heart attack, like there's hundreds of ways to die, and you have to know how to do them all and then stand up and still laugh and be in that character. So it's a it's an art and look after your voice too. That's the hardest thing I find about gaming. It's just that the toll it takes on your voice? Well, that's where you have to that's where learning placement is huge. It is Yeah, it's like learning how to scream and use your voice properly. So we'll go back to tick tock a little less strenuous for that job anyway. Get the TTS to do it for you. That's right. What's your biggest your biggest job today apart from big that was picked up? Probably that Yeah. As far as what people have heard me, I've been in the Super Bowl, which is a big football thing in North America a couple of times, but again, just regionally. And I always say this the most. I did, I was a narrated one season of a TV show in Canada that didn't make it to season two, sadly. So I've done a lot of one offs kind of thing. But I think the one that that hits home for the most is I did a couple of commercials for Kraft. This is an original Kraft teddy bear from back in the 60s. Because my father was an advertising executive and he had the craft account. So this is the smoothie bear. This was my teddy bear growing up. So when I got hired to do the squirrel on the roof, is what it was about some guy jumping off a roof in a squirrel costume, but it was for craft and that was probably the nearest and dearest to my heart. I love you have such a person you have personal items in your voiceover studio and I found it common about lots of and I think it says a lot about our craft that we keep the most personal and emotionally connected things close to us when we're doing this work. It's kind of it helps with all your emotions. Yeah. You know, every every like I said, Every everything is an emotion every every time we speak, there's an emotion attached to it. And the little things you have j Michael Collins euro retreated the K club. I've never granted his buddy. But anyway, yes, I have all kinds of things. But it's important. So here's one this may, I don't know if this means anything to you. But in Canada, this comes out the puppy comes out on Remembrance Day and remembers the veterans. So do you need to pull out a heartstring? So that's here. That's all kinds of ways to that's such an interesting concept is to keep, like, yeah, you're like the the object which you have an emotional tie to there as your kind of emotional palette that you can draw on physically, as you're voicing something that's fascinating, and thought about that. It works for me. I mean, I've just got all of these like, I've got to select new disk toys, you know, like fidget thingies. But when I'm voicing and I used to click a pin, and of course that ruins your recording, so all these silent toys that I like kids toys like this, this squeeze gum stuff. I have a cloud. This I got this. I was at a conference for eLearning and training and whatnot. This was a giveaway and I loved it. It's just a cloud. But it's that same. You've got the client on the other gun. Can we just have that one more time? Fantastic. Oh, well, we we have reached out but it's been such a pleasure to talk to you today. And I wish you all the best with with your case against Tick Tock and again, thank you from the entire industry for you know, standing up for what is right and what we need to do going forward to ensure that we all have the a livelihood, and that we're all respected in that respect. So what are some ways that people can support you or sort of you know, get in touch or follow you on social media? It's pretty easy. Bev standing bevstanding.com twitter @Bevstanding Facebook: Bev standing Instagram Bev standing there is a prize is there? It's it's pretty simple. I didn't do anything fancy. There. I will say there is a GoFundMe that set up and that's to help cover legal fees if necessary. I tried not to let that happen. But too many people want to help and they felt that that was the only way they could. I will say that any money not used for legal fees will be donated to the Brad Venable Scholarship Fund. Brad Venable was an incredibly talented voice actor that passed away from COVID last year. So they have set up a scholarship for him in the US. And I have asked if I can donate anything not used to that. So either way it would go to a great and thank you for allowing me to, to use and abuse your platform to get this message out. Because I think it's a really important one is again, it's not about me just getting paid for the work I did. That's a plus. It's it's so much bigger. And it's important that everybody realize that this is what our industry is facing and we have to be on top of it in a positive, helpful, agreeable way to make it work for everybody. Let's not be difficult. Let's just make this work. Absolutely. Outstanding. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, Toby.